Thanks Paul, I don't mean to come off with a negative attitude to any of the folks or game & tourneys for that matter. I do understand that there are players out there with an amazing gift of precision. This does come with game experience (all conditions practiced).
For those who are truly good, I do apologize.
I do enjoy the game, in all aspects. I have met some extremely nice folks (you included) on the PGLS.
I agree that it is the course and conditions we play against and so I should set my level of expectations a wee bit lower.
I guess I will have to suck it up and try harder and make it fun.
Thanks everyone.
no longer fun when....
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terbal
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Re: no longer fun when....
as an ammy i find it hard to win any event at that level when newcomers who are vg plays come in at that level and shoot the lights out. in real golf you have to play 3 rounds before your level is set surely this should apply to pgls as well
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MiMiC
Re: no longer fun when....
Terry,
Players joining start at Pro usually, and get bumped downwards into Amateur if they prove to be out of their league. We do start some at Amateur, but again, a month of competition should see them bumped upwards if their scoring is a long way ahead of the Amateur average.
Ammy is a competitive division, as they all are - your stroke average for last month was around 71.00 which was around 0.5 above the division average. The upper point at which a player's stroke average will require them to move upwards last month was around 66.00. As you will ascertain from that sort of spread, players at Amateur can be scoring on average somewhere between 66 and 76 to be in that division.
Because of this 'spread', the best players may outstrip scoring of the average group member by as much as around 20 strokes over a 72-hole event, and by as much as around 40 strokes when compared to someone struggling at the bottom of the leaderboard.
As players whose scores outstrip the opposition move upwards, the competition narrows and the stroke averages also tighten. The margins may seem wide, but 4 strokes over 18 holes is 2 strokes per 9 holes. I think most will be able to identify two opportunities on a 9-hole passage of play where doing things better would have made you a stroke, and so we feel the calculations we use for calculating when players face promotion are valid. If those players are consistently doing the right thing and outstripping opponents, then sooner or later they will no longer to maintain such a stranglehold over their division.
Mike
Players joining start at Pro usually, and get bumped downwards into Amateur if they prove to be out of their league. We do start some at Amateur, but again, a month of competition should see them bumped upwards if their scoring is a long way ahead of the Amateur average.
Ammy is a competitive division, as they all are - your stroke average for last month was around 71.00 which was around 0.5 above the division average. The upper point at which a player's stroke average will require them to move upwards last month was around 66.00. As you will ascertain from that sort of spread, players at Amateur can be scoring on average somewhere between 66 and 76 to be in that division.
Because of this 'spread', the best players may outstrip scoring of the average group member by as much as around 20 strokes over a 72-hole event, and by as much as around 40 strokes when compared to someone struggling at the bottom of the leaderboard.
As players whose scores outstrip the opposition move upwards, the competition narrows and the stroke averages also tighten. The margins may seem wide, but 4 strokes over 18 holes is 2 strokes per 9 holes. I think most will be able to identify two opportunities on a 9-hole passage of play where doing things better would have made you a stroke, and so we feel the calculations we use for calculating when players face promotion are valid. If those players are consistently doing the right thing and outstripping opponents, then sooner or later they will no longer to maintain such a stranglehold over their division.
Mike
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terbal
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Re: no longer fun when....
hi mike. I think you took my comment the wrong way. I was just commenting about the comment in her about low scoring. the wgtls remark was saying the same low scoring remarks were just repeating wgtls remarks. As far as the winners of ammy events are concerned. perhaps you could look back on passed winners and see how many were newcomers that win for their first month then get moved up to a higher level. then the next month another newcomer appears. and so on.MiMiC wrote:Terry,
Players joining start at Pro usually, and get bumped downwards into Amateur if they prove to be out of their league. We do start some at Amateur, but again, a month of competition should see them bumped upwards if their scoring is a long way ahead of the Amateur average.
Ammy is a competitive division, as they all are - your stroke average for last month was around 71.00 which was around 0.5 above the division average. The upper point at which a player's stroke average will require them to move upwards last month was around 66.00. As you will ascertain from that sort of spread, players at Amateur can be scoring on average somewhere between 66 and 76 to be in that division.
Because of this 'spread', the best players may outstrip scoring of the average group member by as much as around 20 strokes over a 72-hole event, and by as much as around 40 strokes when compared to someone struggling at the bottom of the leaderboard.
As players whose scores outstrip the opposition move upwards, the competition narrows and the stroke averages also tighten. The margins may seem wide, but 4 strokes over 18 holes is 2 strokes per 9 holes. I think most will be able to identify two opportunities on a 9-hole passage of play where doing things better would have made you a stroke, and so we feel the calculations we use for calculating when players face promotion are valid. If those players are consistently doing the right thing and outstripping opponents, then sooner or later they will no longer to maintain such a stranglehold over their division.
Mike
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MiMiC
Re: no longer fun when....
Hi Terry,
As I have said, we start most at Pro, which should mean it won't affect Amateur level players, but as explained, some joined requesting that level I'm cruel, but not cruel enough to start you all on Tour Pro level to then demote you. I will, however, make sure we do not allow exceptions and everyone will start at the well-populated level of Pro and be moved accordingly in the monthly shake-up.
It is always a difficult balance to strike between allowing players to compete at what they feel is the level they want to play - usually shooting the lights out better than many a real-life Pro can manage - and imposing a level of play, which will inevitably result in players no longer competing, as well as being particularly vocal at any opportunity about how it is unfair where we moved them to, how we are ruining their playing enjoyment and established rivalries with their usual playing partners, and generally using any opportunity to spread the dis-satisfaction amongst other members who will pay any attention to them.
We are also considering a narrowing of the scoring ranges, meaning those at the top of the leaderboard will be subject to movement earlier and across a wider band of scoring.
We have things under constant review, and a time to make changes is approaching when we come to the end of this year. We are looking over our whole play offering at present with that in mind.
Mike
As I have said, we start most at Pro, which should mean it won't affect Amateur level players, but as explained, some joined requesting that level I'm cruel, but not cruel enough to start you all on Tour Pro level to then demote you. I will, however, make sure we do not allow exceptions and everyone will start at the well-populated level of Pro and be moved accordingly in the monthly shake-up.
It is always a difficult balance to strike between allowing players to compete at what they feel is the level they want to play - usually shooting the lights out better than many a real-life Pro can manage - and imposing a level of play, which will inevitably result in players no longer competing, as well as being particularly vocal at any opportunity about how it is unfair where we moved them to, how we are ruining their playing enjoyment and established rivalries with their usual playing partners, and generally using any opportunity to spread the dis-satisfaction amongst other members who will pay any attention to them.
We are also considering a narrowing of the scoring ranges, meaning those at the top of the leaderboard will be subject to movement earlier and across a wider band of scoring.
We have things under constant review, and a time to make changes is approaching when we come to the end of this year. We are looking over our whole play offering at present with that in mind.
Mike
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terbal
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:59 am
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Re: no longer fun when....
MiMiC wrote:Hi Terry,
As I have said, we start most at Pro, which should mean it won't affect Amateur level players, but as explained, some joined requesting that level I'm cruel, but not cruel enough to start you all on Tour Pro level to then demote you. I will, however, make sure we do not allow exceptions and everyone will start at the well-populated level of Pro and be moved accordingly in the monthly shake-up.
It is always a difficult balance to strike between allowing players to compete at what they feel is the level they want to play - usually shooting the lights out better than many a real-life Pro can manage - and imposing a level of play, which will inevitably result in players no longer competing, as well as being particularly vocal at any opportunity about how it is unfair where we moved them to, how we are ruining their playing enjoyment and established rivalries with their usual playing partners, and generally using any opportunity to spread the dis-satisfaction amongst other members who will pay any attention to them.
We are also considering a narrowing of the scoring ranges, meaning those at the top of the leaderboard will be subject to movement earlier and across a wider band of scoring.
We have things under constant review, and a time to make changes is approaching when we come to the end of this year. We are looking over our whole play offering at present with that in mind.
Mike
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Crusher
Re: no longer fun when....
Do keep in mind there is an exploit for aiming for Tour Pros, perhaps even other methods that I cannot record. Having said that, I have no idea how many Tour Pro players use this in-game exploit. Suffice it to say that a Tour Pro player (with a conscience) explained to me how the exploit was used. I then created the video so all players could decide whether or not they wanted to use the same exploit. Since it's built into the game, everyone should have the right to decide. Hopefully JNPG2 will get rid of this exploit.
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MiMiC
Re: no longer fun when....
'Exploit' or not (personally I don't really see it as such, even though as many will attest, my own personal method of aiming certainly doesn't show any major advantage), the Tour Pro scores can't really be written off to this. All that Tour Pro's are doing in using it is to adopt the same method of aiming that other levels have. The real challenge of Tour Pro is not in the aiming (considering many play with course management in mind, and use of f2 and f3 without exploit is still able to find a landing spot and scope a green) but in the requirement of hitting as purely as possible in every situation - the doubling of penalty as you step upwards requires a special level of consistency and mindset. If you don't possess that, then usually you'll find the level too stressful to play and a major difference to your enjoyment of less rigorous levels of play.
Using the 'exploit' only gives Tour Pro players the same aiming tools that other levels have. As I have stated before, personally I would prefer it not to be there, but if addressed, I would also like all other swings to lose their ability to aim in any window they choose, as to do so is no reflection of real-life golf. It is all about how you use the information you can find on the course, and about how you employ that through skill and judgement from the tee or approach launch point. Same as you can't use your caddie to provide you an aimpoint, you should also not be able to use non-golfer views to zero-in on a target.
I feel the reason that we are seeing scores which others feel are making the competition less enjoyable for them when they cannot hope to match it is because of three reasons:
1. Some members have not optimized their set-ups to reduce swing problems to a minimum. For a movement swinger, this can be all about their desktop set-up, posture, state of mind and understanding of how to 'tune' their swing. For Click players, it is down to how steady and reliable the swingmeter is.
2. Players at the top of the leaderboards display in their stats either a high level of consistency, and mastery of timing which will always place them in the upper percentile of computer gameplay, or have particularly mastered one element of computer golf, aided by the design of the game, to transform less-than-stellar play into the sort of play which does lift them into the upper bracket. It could be fairway-finding, pulling off a green-finding recovery, being able to pin-seek with shorter iron and wedge understanding, pulling off highly consistent short-game play around the green, or putting like a maestro.
3. Particular swings have particular advantage points: Motionswing with shortgame and putting, Controller RTS with fairway consistency and putting, Click with a 'hardwired' outcome all dependent on just one element of hitting one snap-point, rather than the multi-dimensional outcomes which other swings have. Once you can match your chosen swingtype to a method of play which will maximize the advantage, the lower scores are more achieveable and greater consistency is achieved. This is not to denigrate any swing-type, as each is valid and the differences between them are to be welcomed. Players can point at the leaderboard and say "This swing is ruling the roost", but we will always have players, some of whom will only show up occasionally, who will post scores to shatter those mis-conceptions.
Using the 'exploit' only gives Tour Pro players the same aiming tools that other levels have. As I have stated before, personally I would prefer it not to be there, but if addressed, I would also like all other swings to lose their ability to aim in any window they choose, as to do so is no reflection of real-life golf. It is all about how you use the information you can find on the course, and about how you employ that through skill and judgement from the tee or approach launch point. Same as you can't use your caddie to provide you an aimpoint, you should also not be able to use non-golfer views to zero-in on a target.
I feel the reason that we are seeing scores which others feel are making the competition less enjoyable for them when they cannot hope to match it is because of three reasons:
1. Some members have not optimized their set-ups to reduce swing problems to a minimum. For a movement swinger, this can be all about their desktop set-up, posture, state of mind and understanding of how to 'tune' their swing. For Click players, it is down to how steady and reliable the swingmeter is.
2. Players at the top of the leaderboards display in their stats either a high level of consistency, and mastery of timing which will always place them in the upper percentile of computer gameplay, or have particularly mastered one element of computer golf, aided by the design of the game, to transform less-than-stellar play into the sort of play which does lift them into the upper bracket. It could be fairway-finding, pulling off a green-finding recovery, being able to pin-seek with shorter iron and wedge understanding, pulling off highly consistent short-game play around the green, or putting like a maestro.
3. Particular swings have particular advantage points: Motionswing with shortgame and putting, Controller RTS with fairway consistency and putting, Click with a 'hardwired' outcome all dependent on just one element of hitting one snap-point, rather than the multi-dimensional outcomes which other swings have. Once you can match your chosen swingtype to a method of play which will maximize the advantage, the lower scores are more achieveable and greater consistency is achieved. This is not to denigrate any swing-type, as each is valid and the differences between them are to be welcomed. Players can point at the leaderboard and say "This swing is ruling the roost", but we will always have players, some of whom will only show up occasionally, who will post scores to shatter those mis-conceptions.
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migs
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Re: no longer fun when....
I know I'm a bit late to this conversation, but still...
Personally, I just hope nobody would use any aid outside the spirit of the game, but whatever, it's there. As people saw in the President's Cup, I play at a fair old clip, and just trust my eye and finger to get me there. I didn't even know about F3/F5 working at amateur level until now, and I still won't be using it.
Anyway, to Mike's point that aiming in any window should be removed. That bit, I disagree with, but with good reason. Sometimes, aiming in the main window is impossible simply because there's no way to gauge distance when there's a dip in the course and the distance displayed on the pole position can jump 60 or 70 yards instantly. That's when I use it in the map window.
Unless I misunderstand the point.
Personally, I just hope nobody would use any aid outside the spirit of the game, but whatever, it's there. As people saw in the President's Cup, I play at a fair old clip, and just trust my eye and finger to get me there. I didn't even know about F3/F5 working at amateur level until now, and I still won't be using it.
Anyway, to Mike's point that aiming in any window should be removed. That bit, I disagree with, but with good reason. Sometimes, aiming in the main window is impossible simply because there's no way to gauge distance when there's a dip in the course and the distance displayed on the pole position can jump 60 or 70 yards instantly. That's when I use it in the map window.
Unless I misunderstand the point.
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MiMiC
Re: no longer fun when....
The point is, Migs, why are we making Tour Pro without exploits any more difficult than other levels as far as aiming goes. As it is, a Tour Pro suffers a 100% greater miss-snap penalty.
What I am saying is, if the game wants to be as close to simulation as possible, you should have all players using the same tools of aiming. You can use f3 to see where the aim is, then make a small adjustment with your feet (cursor key) and hit f3 again to see if you are on your line. That is what Tour Pro's are having to do on every shot, if not using the exploit.
I just feel that use of views and aiming in views - for example f2 giving you a view of the green and you being able to just point to where you wish to aim at - is outside of the real skill of the game... it is ALL about how you work with limited levels of information, and your ability to envision what you are trying to pull off with that limited information as your guide.
What I am saying is, if the game wants to be as close to simulation as possible, you should have all players using the same tools of aiming. You can use f3 to see where the aim is, then make a small adjustment with your feet (cursor key) and hit f3 again to see if you are on your line. That is what Tour Pro's are having to do on every shot, if not using the exploit.
I just feel that use of views and aiming in views - for example f2 giving you a view of the green and you being able to just point to where you wish to aim at - is outside of the real skill of the game... it is ALL about how you work with limited levels of information, and your ability to envision what you are trying to pull off with that limited information as your guide.