Discouraging

[Greensboronclion]

With 3 click you work your butt off at TP to score and if you are off the slightest at the bottom you pay a steep price. I just played the first two rounds of the PGA 9 at Liberty and hit the ball real well and went 33 and 33 and lost a couple with miss hits but got lucky also a couple times. The point is there is no room for error at the bottom of the swing and that is not the case with the other swings especially with some of the controllers and low end mouse that are used.

[BladeRunner]

I would also like to see a 3click (only) group/teams. Truth be told nothing has changed in terms of a sense of fair-play since golf sims went online back in the 90's.

3click groups/teams
controller groups/teams
mouse-movement groups/teams

A giant can of worms was opened when golf games were released for both console and PC. Preceded by mouse-movement which lured players into edging, using mice with zero axis adjustment etc. We all know rumors of 3click cheat software/hardware but I have yet to experience something fishy on the other end of the connection when I play a fellow 3clicker. We 3C's know this is a tough game and don't want it to be easier. Skill and chance are a major factor in our games.

IMHO the old days with Links set the bar so high for future golf games that no one has been able to match the equality we felt when playing another 3clicker.

Finally. When I see someone scrolling to aim or take too long to shoot, I know something is fishy. Too easy for us to know this because of so many years of "point and click" aiming. And shots fired within 15 seconds of each players turn - not 30 to 45 seconds. Someone creates a 3click group, me and another 20 to 40 players will be there in a heartbeat.

You sure have a lot to say. The only thing that would change for you, if they had 3-Click only tournaments. You would be getting beat by 3-Clickers every single week instead of everyone else. Maybe worry about your own game, instead of making accusations about every other swing type. Your the only person in this thread, that was banned from the OGT tours for cheating.

[terbal]

I would also like to see a 3click (only) group/teams. Truth be told nothing has changed in terms of a sense of fair-play since golf sims went online back in the 90's.

3click groups/teams
controller groups/teams
mouse-movement groups/teams

A giant can of worms was opened when golf games were released for both console and PC. Preceded by mouse-movement which lured players into edging, using mice with zero axis adjustment etc. We all know rumors of 3click cheat software/hardware but I have yet to experience something fishy on the other end of the connection when I play a fellow 3clicker. We 3C's know this is a tough game and don't want it to be easier. Skill and chance are a major factor in our games.

IMHO the old days with Links set the bar so high for future golf games that no one has been able to match the equality we felt when playing another 3clicker.

Finally. When I see someone scrolling to aim or take too long to shoot, I know something is fishy. Too easy for us to know this because of so many years of "point and click" aiming. And shots fired within 15 seconds of each players turn - not 30 to 45 seconds. Someone creates a 3click group, me and another 20 to 40 players will be there in a heartbeat.

[TexasACES]

I would have to look at the statistics showing how many players are in the three groups that Crusher is suggesting. In my first opinion there would be sufficient players to make 3click group, but not near enough playing the controller or Mouse movement to make a very large group.
I was thinking more like the Tour Pro, Pro, Amateur, Hacker groups would provide a larger playing field.

Unless there is some way I do not know of, players can not tell what swing use others are using unless you ask during a game. Without trying to start and argument Crusher's statements above " We all know rumors of 3click cheat software/hardware but I have yet to experience something fishy on the other end of the connection when I play a fellow 3clicker. We 3C's know this is a tough game and don't want it to be easier. Skill and chance are a major factor in our games." Kind of sounds like you do not feel that mouse-movements and controller players feel the same way. The game of golf is based on self imposed penalties and honor. Both PP and PGLS are monitoring players and sending a message at the end of the game, not all players are getting them like at first, just the ones that are still playing under the conditions that trigger the message. I hope I do not start a big discussion on that, I just felt that I had to, as a mouse-swing user, express my opinion.

[Greensboronclion]

There is just not enough players on the PC side of the game to split it up into groups as that was tried before and there were only a handful using the other swings. The Controller and RTSM swings are not easy but can be if people want it to be easy and there really is no way to police it and we might as well face the fact we will always have it. If I use my Xbox360 for controller and Corsair M65 Pro gaming mouse for RTSM this game can be brutal and is very tough to play but then again if I use a Speedlink XEON controller and a cheap 10 dollar mouse I will be the Jack Nicklaus of JNPG as I can go real low all the time. I choose to use my the harder ones and play 3C for tournaments and practice with the others in hopes of someday getting a little better. In the end this is just a game and my goal each week is to look at a certain few players and try and keep up with them and enjoy doing it so I will just keep doing what I do.

[Affo]

Just for info, this week's Tough Stuff as at now (21:21pm Monday BST):

3 Click - 30 players
Mouse - 6 players
Controller - 2 players

Just picked that as it's the quickest field, but many of those play the PGA9 and PGA18, so you can see, type of swing split will not happen for leaderboards and I don't think any league I do will be split either. You'll be playing against the players in your Division, be it 3C, Mouse or Controller.

I'll get my cap on and think.

[Crusher]

I hope I do not start a big discussion on that, I just felt that I had to, as a mouse-swing user, express my opinion.

No argument or debate from me. I watched a 3clicker (supposedly) scroll left or right to aim. That is not conventional with mouse clickers. We aim, calculate and press mouse buttons. We rarely ever use the arrow keys to aim left or right. So if its' not arrow keys doing the work what else coulde it be other than a combination of mouse/controller?

Several MS and Controller names disappeared over the past eight months (at Steam). New names have appeared with super low scores. Profiles are hidden at Steam so we don't see the 20 to 100 hours of play time. Speaking of profiles. I think they should all be displayed publicly. No private profiles. What's there to hide? (rhetorical question)

Back on topic: Yep. I would love to see a 3clickers group along with what we currently have going...

[Greensboronclion]

I didn't even know about the Tough Stuff Tour. I now have signed up and love a good round of grinding golf.

[MiMiC]

I watched a 3clicker (supposedly) scroll left or right to aim. That is not conventional with mouse clickers. We aim, calculate and press mouse buttons. We rarely ever use the arrow keys to aim left or right. So if its' not arrow keys doing the work what else coulde it be other than a combination of mouse/controller?

Anyone who plays me (a mouseswinger) will sometimes see the movement as described above. What I am doing, and I suspect other are as well, is using the wheel on my mouse which has a configurable wheel control which allows me to nudge it on its right side to edge left, and vice versa. It is basically set up to work like a cursor key.

I use it at times because I always play in first person perspective from a low angle. My lining up of shots is done as you would in real-life, with an estimation of where your bodyline is directed. As a Tour Pro player you don't have a whole lot of other options if you don't want to hold up online play, which is almost exclusively what I play.

You'll also see me do the same at times on the green if I am feeling confident that I can read the line without any putting aids.

Why make it so hard? Because I want my gaming to be as close an approximation of feel and vision as it can be, short of going full sim.

There are a fair few players who also use cursor or some other method to 'nudge' their aim along. Nothing suspect at all about it.

For further clarification, and restating what has been said on the subject before (excuse me whilst I raise my voice to reinforce the point) THE SWING TYPE DATA CANNOT BE ALTERED BY THE PLAYER. We receive the data (which can be found on scorecards when clicking on a posted score in the leaderboards) directly from the API, on a shot by shot basis. Once a player has begun a round, they are unable to change their swing type. The data cannot be tampered with, because the API input back to us has to be uninterrupted - that is, you cannot capture the data somehow and manipulate it.

[MiMiC]

The Controller and RTSM swings are not easy but can be if people want it to be easy and there really is no way to police it and we might as well face the fact we will always have it. If I use my Xbox360 for controller and Corsair M65 Pro gaming mouse for RTSM this game can be brutal and is very tough to play but then again if I use a Speedlink XEON controller and a cheap 10 dollar mouse I will be the Jack Nicklaus of JNPG as I can go real low all the time. I choose to use my the harder ones and play 3C for tournaments and practice with the others in hopes of someday getting a little better. In the end this is just a game and my goal each week is to look at a certain few players and try and keep up with them and enjoy doing it so I will just keep doing what I do.

We are now very close to introducing at least a level of scrutiny to the sensitivity of Controllers and Mice, which will at least deal with those who are using the most forgiving of equipment to a point beyond where the game is designed for.

This comes as steps have now been taken with the release of the recent update to address issues surrounding exploitation of the click-swing method.

More details on this will be following shortly.

There is always more that can be done on this front. Part of it is in the hands of the developer to address, so that controllers and mice are 'calibrated' so that they match what the game designer intended as far as skill and difficulty goes. The other part is to at least make the use of devices as transparent as possible, which would maybe then allow us to impose a 'genuine certificated controller' rule. There is not that level of detail at present, but is some visibility, and so maybe we will see that develop in future as consoles become are larger part of the game's target market.