Green slopes

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LOLserver
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Re: Green slopes

Post by LOLserver »

Hey Armand,

I guess only pro players & caddies would study each green meticulously of the course to be played in order to get the best info. I think 99% of the players in this game do not go to that extend and merely hit at the center of the green no matter from where they are hitting the approach. Besides there are now so, so many courses, that it would be almost a mission impossible to study with notepads or data every single green. :blink:

I aim at the center of the green, as you do, when I am hitting my approach (or from the tee in par 3's), with over 180 yards distance using iron 3, 4 or 5 and with woods of course, but when the green is between 40 to 130 yards I can land the ball pretty close to my aim even with some wind. A pin with an attached 40-60 feet size grid to move around the green would be awesome :cool: All factors already exist within the game, we just need a button or command to activate it :smile:

Btw I have had a 2 hdc in real life and I also could choose the spot to land within 120 yards. I missed more correct landings in real life than in this game :whistle:

Eric
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tlvx

Re: Green slopes

Post by tlvx »

This whole issue would be moot, if the player could simply setup their own camera angles, so that when the player presses F2, for example, instead of looking down on the green, the player could look as if they were perched approximately flag height, or lower; in order to ascertain the slopes within the green complex. - In that same vein, it has been oft requested as well, for green reading, to have reverse cameras and low cameras and such, that the player could setup to hotkeys. But, it's all water under the bridge, by now.

Or, as was stated, if the grid could be turned on while on the fairway. However, to that point, I think the developer made a deliberate decision to force the player to discern these things on their own, versus having instantaneous knowledge of the entire shape of the green. It's part of their simulated difficulty. Of course, we know it's not actual difficulty. But, it forces the player to either do their own time-consuming research, or to just play by feel. So, it ends up being simulated difficulty.

It's notable to point out that a few of the golf games from the past have had the grid on, even when off the green... and in previous discussions, many moon's ago, the developers have flatly stated they would not be setting up this particular game with every conceivable aid from previous iterations of video golf. They've always intended this game to be more of a simulation than an arcade game, which would otherwise be quite easy for anyone to pick up and play... and mindlessly score well.

Personally, I think these design decisions were novel... but also a major harbinger of why this game never broke through to the masses. It would have been simple enough to just relegate various additional aids - deemed as arcade - to the lower levels. Or, they could have simply had two modes, Arcade and Simulation... each with their own aids, and difficulty levels within them.

But, usually a first version of a game is simply aiming to be released. It usually takes a few versions of anything to begin to get fully fleshed out. I'm not sure if Trackman, the new owner of this IP, is going to release another PC version, outside of simulator golf. But, if so, it would be nice to give players a bit more customization over some of these visual things that are arguably not true aids, and rather just time wasters, in reverse. But, where they draw the line is always going to be subjective. I just hope it dawns on them that everyone can have what they want... merely regulated to various modes of play.

There are players that refuse to play with grids or BLI's, because they rightfully argue that this knowledge greatly increases the likelihood of scoring, often unrealistically so. However, many others would rightfully argue that not knowing is just a matter of forcing the player to do tedious busywork; and, the game should not be a contest of mapping out courses in advance, either.

I'd say that the greatest use of this deliberate obfuscation is how the developers have setup power versus distance... and how it takes a near rocket scientist to figure out precisely how hard to hit each shot, in this game. Sure, they could have just placed a distance indicator pin, on the power meter; so that the player would instantly know how hard to hit the shot, no matter which club they picked out. However, again, this was a deliberate design decision, forcing the player to either do their own busywork, figuring out how far each club travels at various strengths; (which changes wildly between soft vs. hard course conditions) or, to simply rely on the largely dubious game caddy, which indicates approximately how far each club carries, in the bottom right corner of the screen.

But, now that they've laid out their own mantra, I'd hate to see them just giveaway all of this knowledge, with a distance indicator pin, outside of say, Beginner level. But, even if they gave it away on Beginner, than the player could simply write it down, and take it to any level. So, I see why they didn't do this, either. As it stands, the only way to figure out distances, is to go out to the range with a bucket of balls, and jot them down, one by one. I'm sure this is as intended, because it definitely makes the game more difficult, for everyone that has chosen to forgo the practice range.

But, again... it's debatable whether this is legitimate difficulty, or just forcing the player to do busywork. Ultimately, knowing how hard to hit a shot doesn't automatically mean that the player will execute that same shot, certainly not on demand. So, it begs the question; What's the real downside to providing a legitimate in-game caddy?

Ultimately, the way it's currently setup, players cannot ever quite figure out where they're going wrong, because... unless they hit a dinger, in the practice range, with readouts of power and accuracy; out on the course, the player cannot begin to reverse engineer what went wrong... between club selection, power, workability, elevation, wind, green hardness, green speed, etcetera. But, again, this is all by design, well intended to catch players out... a total concept of preventing arcade scoring that occurred in golf games of yore. - You have to acknowledge, this has largely succeeded in preventing the vast majority of players from coming up with a firing solution, so to speak.

Unfortunately, all of this ridiculous tedium just ends up being the reason why this game never caught a foothold versus more mainstream video golf titles. Most players have just given up the game in total, just as soon as they realized they couldn't easily figure out how far to hit the ball.

As an aside, personally I've yet to fully commit the entire scope of this game to memory... even after a few thousand hours of playing. Another obvious reason why most players have given this game up... after growing tired of trying to figure it all out; or growing tired of playing all by feel. Nevertheless, I still keep copious charts, that I refer to from time to time, for those in-between shots. I've found that guessing only works part of the time. So, I decided long ago to simply stop guessing and just do the math. Unfortunately, it takes ages to figure out the math, on the fly... so, after spending hours upon hours in the various ranges; I now just refer to numerous charts, that clue me back in - to sensible shots, when I would otherwise just get flustered.

Here's an example of a chart that someone else made to assist with putting on various green speeds. http://golfers.africamotion.net/t88-swi ... -stimp-map

*I think that linked site is temporarily down, as I can't seem to quickly pull it up. But, I assume that it will be up again, at some point, considering the players from there keep coming back to this game. lol
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Armand
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Re: Green slopes

Post by Armand »

Hi Eric,

My suggestion of logging each and every green on each course was a bit tongue-in-cheek, since JNPG isn't going to get any updates to get what you are after. I can't comment whether PP intentionally omitted aids like this to make game "tediously difficult" (my very simple and probably not completely accurate summary of tlvx's post!), but I know I personally can't be bothered to go through the effort that might be required to accurately pick out landing spots on greens. I play JNPG in that same way I try to play the real game. I have reasonable distance control, but I suffer from being offline with my aim or my shot results in real life and with JNPG. That probably explains my 16 hdcp!

I have no problems with your suggestion to include a grid in the F2/F3/F5 windows - but I know it won't happen in JNPG1. I don't use those cameras now, and if PP/Trackman were to include more aids in those cameras or different cameras, I still wouldn't use them. I honestly do not like to play golf games where -10 or better is the norm, so I purposely choose to not use the available aids in the game. I really liked playing after pressing CTRL-ALT-U (to turn off all HUD information), except for a couple of things that were needed (like which club you had selected!). I know I'm in the minority, but I like some minor luck to be involved in scoring a good round.

Anyway, here's hoping that there is a JNPG2 and that it contains all the optional aids and features that players want.

:drinks:
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LOLserver
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Re: Green slopes

Post by LOLserver »

Again, very interesting to read you post tlvx :cool: . Appreciated you take your time to explain exhaustively your point of view about having more aids/helps in this game that the ones there already exist. Fair point to say that the game has been planed precisely not to have more help aids for players because the players ought to figure out the greens once there are about to putt and not before.

Whether the info or grid for the green hitting the approach should be added to the next PP is still doubtful. as Armand point out.

Is this game trying to avoid being "arcade" by not giving more hep, like the one I am asking for?, it is a difficult issue and we could write thousands of post without finally agree on what is what :ermm:

A short explanation why I think it is a good idea to have the green grid for the approach. I left WGT after reaching champion level with a very low avg, etc, etc...all because the game became merely mathematics calculations and very little "estimation". Golf games ought to be "estimation" and "feeling" for the shot. The best top player in WGT is a good pal of mine and we have a discussion about the same issue, he uses maths for absolutely every single shot.....he is the best over there and earns hundredths of credits every time he plays tournaments....fair enough, his joy.

Green grid for the approach can give you INFO about the slopes but it is not a guaranty that you will make your ball land and remain in the selected spot, only wedges have enough spin to do that and still you need to be very very precise in the estimation of the power, green hardness and stimp...however still not a guaranty...but again INFO for your shot :smile:

This game is different, best players, I think hit constantly the "perfect shot" (right in the middle of the meter) and it is easy for them mathematically to land in the right spot ....if there is NO wind :sleep: . Wind in this particular game VARIES all the time if you play with some wind and more noticeable when you play high winds "stormy". :notworthy:

Wind behavior in this game is the most realistic I have ever seen in any gold game. I have made a couple of threads talking about the awesome PP wind. :cool:

To have a wind that varies its strength & direction WHILE the ball is flying is very realistic....indeed, just like in reality :biggrin: I play myself stormy all the time when playing solo.....so challenging. :wink:

Eric
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